听Phil 讲中国Gay的故事
热128已有 5986 次阅读 2011-01-27 17:28
昨天我和Phil在三里屯聊天,他给我看了他在台北、高雄的玩时带回来的同志旅游指南,原来台湾的同志文化也如此发达,不逊于泰国。(台湾领导人曾说,台湾是亚洲对同志最友好的地方之一。)台湾,今年我的目的地之一!
然后,Phil就对我讲了一些他和中国gay交往时令他费解的地方:
1、很多人gay不出柜,但原因从来不是自己不勇敢、不是自己害怕,而是“我是中国人”,这是什么逻辑?
2、很多gay上来就问他,你是1是0?年龄?身高?Phil只好在msn和对方说,我并没有和你做爱的意思。
3、很多gay问他alfa酒吧在哪里(Phil负责alfa酒吧周五同志派对的宣传运营),酒水怎么样,服务员好不好,位置在哪里啊,附近有什么吃的啊,等等等等,问了十多个问题,最后说了一句:还是不去了……Phil说,如果是一个老外,只会问他一个问题(我和他同时说出来这个问题):Where is it?Phil很奇怪,为什么中国人就不愿意尝试新东西呢?试了不就知道了。
4、很多gay自称1,所以表现得很男人;很多gay也把自己定位为gay,也把自己打扮的很女人,和“身份”相符,1要照顾人,0要被照顾,两个人都没有自己的独立的人格。
5、一些gay幻想国外gay环境多么open,但Phil说,如果在英国,你一个人走在路上,走路看起来非常的女性化,很可能会有人跳出来揍你一顿,但在中国,至少不会有人这么对你。
6、一些gay觉得只有1/0插入才是做爱,手淫口交不是做爱。Phil 就不理解了:难道你回家,打开门,看到你妈给你爸口交,你也能当没看见一样,在一旁冷静的看电视么?
……
听了Phil说的这些段子,我很难过,无言以对。因为,他说的都是事实,即便不是所有gay都这样。
更让我难过的是,这不仅仅是中国同志的问题,而是中国人的问题。以1/0在生活中的角色划分为例,其实我们社会中的夫妻关系,男女恋人关系,不也基本如此么?我们对领导、对父母、对国家领袖,从来都缺少人与人之间的平等,没有质疑、没有讨论、不允许伤害,有的只是顺从和“尊敬”。
总之,我很难过,因为改变这一切,任重,道远。
---
2011.01.28 13:27
Phil对此文的回复:
Hi,
I've just seen this and would like to add my reply. Sorry that it is not in Chinese, but I want to express myself clearly...
Firstly, I would like to point out that I had no idea my comments would be here!! This was just a casual conversation between friends in McDonald's and these are just my personal opinions.
Having seen your comments, I feel I should maybe add a few points:
Most importantly, I understand that i am not Chinese and I can never see things in exactly the same way, but I have been living here more than 7 years and I have both lived, worked and dated with Chinese people, so i feel i have some understanding. While I am not Chinese, isn't cultural exchange all about the sharing of ideas? Certainly, I feel that I have learned a lot of new ideas from my chinese friends - some of which I think are amazing. This is not a debate of which country is better, but a sharing of cultural ideas so we can all enrich our lives.
I will try also and comment on each point that Jeff (凌绝顶) raises above:
1. I totally understand that it is extremely difficult for Chinese people to 'come out' to their parents. What I think many people don't understand is that it is the same in my country too!! I have Chinese friends whose parents are fine with them being gay and I have Western friends whose parents are definitely not ok with it. my meaning is that this is an individual family matter - nothing to do with where we are from. Before I told my family I was scared too (this is natural), but I believe there are also better ways to tell your family and it is these positive stories that we should share so that all younger gay guys (Chinese or Western) can have a better experience.
2. I am not saying here that people shouldn't have a 'top' or 'bottom' role in bed. All I am saying is that why does it have to be such an early question?? The reason I don't like it being the first question, is that it suggests, if i give the wrong answer, then people won't be interested in talking with me! We all have our sexual preferences, in the same way that i prefer rice to noodles, but it isn't what defines me. There is much more to me than simply being a top (I hope!)!
3. This is just a cultural difference, I don't say it is good or bad - just different. My meaning is that maybe all people from any country should be as open as possible to trying new experiences without questioning too much?
4. For this i am only talking personally. I want a relationship where me and my boyfriend are equal. When he needs help - I am there, when i need support - he is there. Again, i think this should have nothing to do with whether people are top or bottom. Of course all people like to be taken care of, but in a relationship, I think it's important to have an equal balance.
5. For this, i was saying that in many ways, it is easier to be gay in China than many people realise. When I tell Chinese people (who I am not friends or connected with) that I am gay, I think that actually their reaction is often better than English people. Coming from a more 'open' society has both advantages and disadvantages. Beijing is certainly much safer for gay people but also has less understanding of it. Perhaps the two go together?? I don't know...
6. Finally, I think this is not just restricted to China, it is simply my personal opinion. I think that sex is any sexual act between two guys - whether it includes anal sex or not. Surely all sex can be really fun and should be considered sex!
Anyway, ALL of these points are just my opinion - whether you agree or not, is simply a matter of personal taste.
I really hope to see you all in Alfa tonight, it would be great to meet new friends in person
Phil(查看Phil在飞赞的主页:点击查看)
然后,Phil就对我讲了一些他和中国gay交往时令他费解的地方:
1、很多人gay不出柜,但原因从来不是自己不勇敢、不是自己害怕,而是“我是中国人”,这是什么逻辑?
2、很多gay上来就问他,你是1是0?年龄?身高?Phil只好在msn和对方说,我并没有和你做爱的意思。
3、很多gay问他alfa酒吧在哪里(Phil负责alfa酒吧周五同志派对的宣传运营),酒水怎么样,服务员好不好,位置在哪里啊,附近有什么吃的啊,等等等等,问了十多个问题,最后说了一句:还是不去了……Phil说,如果是一个老外,只会问他一个问题(我和他同时说出来这个问题):Where is it?Phil很奇怪,为什么中国人就不愿意尝试新东西呢?试了不就知道了。
4、很多gay自称1,所以表现得很男人;很多gay也把自己定位为gay,也把自己打扮的很女人,和“身份”相符,1要照顾人,0要被照顾,两个人都没有自己的独立的人格。
5、一些gay幻想国外gay环境多么open,但Phil说,如果在英国,你一个人走在路上,走路看起来非常的女性化,很可能会有人跳出来揍你一顿,但在中国,至少不会有人这么对你。
6、一些gay觉得只有1/0插入才是做爱,手淫口交不是做爱。Phil 就不理解了:难道你回家,打开门,看到你妈给你爸口交,你也能当没看见一样,在一旁冷静的看电视么?
……
听了Phil说的这些段子,我很难过,无言以对。因为,他说的都是事实,即便不是所有gay都这样。
更让我难过的是,这不仅仅是中国同志的问题,而是中国人的问题。以1/0在生活中的角色划分为例,其实我们社会中的夫妻关系,男女恋人关系,不也基本如此么?我们对领导、对父母、对国家领袖,从来都缺少人与人之间的平等,没有质疑、没有讨论、不允许伤害,有的只是顺从和“尊敬”。
总之,我很难过,因为改变这一切,任重,道远。
---
2011.01.28 13:27
Phil对此文的回复:
Hi,
I've just seen this and would like to add my reply. Sorry that it is not in Chinese, but I want to express myself clearly...
Firstly, I would like to point out that I had no idea my comments would be here!! This was just a casual conversation between friends in McDonald's and these are just my personal opinions.
Having seen your comments, I feel I should maybe add a few points:
Most importantly, I understand that i am not Chinese and I can never see things in exactly the same way, but I have been living here more than 7 years and I have both lived, worked and dated with Chinese people, so i feel i have some understanding. While I am not Chinese, isn't cultural exchange all about the sharing of ideas? Certainly, I feel that I have learned a lot of new ideas from my chinese friends - some of which I think are amazing. This is not a debate of which country is better, but a sharing of cultural ideas so we can all enrich our lives.
I will try also and comment on each point that Jeff (凌绝顶) raises above:
1. I totally understand that it is extremely difficult for Chinese people to 'come out' to their parents. What I think many people don't understand is that it is the same in my country too!! I have Chinese friends whose parents are fine with them being gay and I have Western friends whose parents are definitely not ok with it. my meaning is that this is an individual family matter - nothing to do with where we are from. Before I told my family I was scared too (this is natural), but I believe there are also better ways to tell your family and it is these positive stories that we should share so that all younger gay guys (Chinese or Western) can have a better experience.
2. I am not saying here that people shouldn't have a 'top' or 'bottom' role in bed. All I am saying is that why does it have to be such an early question?? The reason I don't like it being the first question, is that it suggests, if i give the wrong answer, then people won't be interested in talking with me! We all have our sexual preferences, in the same way that i prefer rice to noodles, but it isn't what defines me. There is much more to me than simply being a top (I hope!)!
3. This is just a cultural difference, I don't say it is good or bad - just different. My meaning is that maybe all people from any country should be as open as possible to trying new experiences without questioning too much?
4. For this i am only talking personally. I want a relationship where me and my boyfriend are equal. When he needs help - I am there, when i need support - he is there. Again, i think this should have nothing to do with whether people are top or bottom. Of course all people like to be taken care of, but in a relationship, I think it's important to have an equal balance.
5. For this, i was saying that in many ways, it is easier to be gay in China than many people realise. When I tell Chinese people (who I am not friends or connected with) that I am gay, I think that actually their reaction is often better than English people. Coming from a more 'open' society has both advantages and disadvantages. Beijing is certainly much safer for gay people but also has less understanding of it. Perhaps the two go together?? I don't know...
6. Finally, I think this is not just restricted to China, it is simply my personal opinion. I think that sex is any sexual act between two guys - whether it includes anal sex or not. Surely all sex can be really fun and should be considered sex!
Anyway, ALL of these points are just my opinion - whether you agree or not, is simply a matter of personal taste.
I really hope to see you all in Alfa tonight, it would be great to meet new friends in person
Phil(查看Phil在飞赞的主页:点击查看)
声明: 本文及其评论仅代表个人观点,不代表飞赞网立场。不当言论请举报。
评论 (110 个评论) 发表评论
I've just seen this and would like to add my reply. Sorry that it is not in Chinese, but I want to express myself clearly...
Firstly, I would like to point out that I had no idea my comments would be here!! This was just a casual conversation between friends in McDonald's and these are just my personal opinions.
Having seen your comments, I feel i should maybe add a few points:
Most importantly, I understand that i am not Chinese and I can never see things in exactly the same way, but I have been living here more than 7 years and I have both lived, worked and dated with Chinese people, so i feel i have some understanding. While I am not Chinese, isn't cultural exchange all about the sharing of ideas? Certainly, I feel that I have learned a lot of new ideas from my chinese friends - some of which I think are amazing. This is not a debate of which country is better, but a sharing of cultural ideas so we can all enrich our lives.
I will try also and comment on each point that Jeff raises above:
1. I totally understand that it is extremely difficult for Chinese people to 'come out' to their parents. What I think many people don't understand is that it is the same in my country too!! I have Chinese friends whose parents are fine with them being gay and I have Western friends whose parents are definitely not ok with it. my meaning is that this is an individual family matter - nothing to do with where we are from. Before I told my family I was scared too (this is natural), but I believe there are also better ways to tell your family and it is these positive stories that we should share so that all younger gay guys (Chinese or Western) can have a better experience.
2. I am not saying here that people shouldn't have a 'top' or 'bottom' role in bed. All I am saying is that why does it have to be such an early question?? The reason I don't like it being the first question, is that it suggests, if i give the wrong answer, then people won't be interested in talking with me! We all have our sexual preferences, in the same way that i prefer rice to noodles, but it isn't what defines me. There is much more to me than simply being a top (I hope!)!
3. This is just a cultural difference, I don't say it is good or bad - just different. My meaning is that maybe all people from any country should be as open as possible to trying new experiences without questioning too much?
4. For this i am only talking personally. I want a relationship where me and my boyfriend are equal. When he needs help - I am there, when i need support - he is there. Again, i think this should have nothing to do with whether people are top or bottom. Of course all people like to be taken care of, but in a relationship, I think it's important to have an equal balance.
5. For this, i was saying that in many ways, it is easier to be gay in China than many people realise. When I tell Chinese people (who I am not friends or connected with) that I am gay, I think that actually their reaction is often better than English people. Coming from a more 'open' society has both advantages and disadvantages. Beijing is certainly much safer for gay people but also has less understanding of it. Perhaps the two go together?? I don't know...
6. Finally, I think this is not just restricted to China, it is simply my personal opinion. I think that sex is any sexual act between two guys - whether it includes anal sex or not. Surely all sex can be really fun and should be considered sex!
Anyway, ALL of these points are just my opinion - whether you agree or not, is simply a matter of personal taste.
I really hope to see you all in Alfa tonight, it would be great to meet new friends in person
外来的观察更能看清问题所在。
我真的非常推荐大家都能看一下柏杨先生的《丑陋的中国人》这本书,而且看的时候放下中国人的自尊自卑自傲和面子,以一颗客观理性的心态来看。
《菊与刀》让日本人惊呼美国学者更了解自己,我们中国人也应该更多的自省一下,何谓中国人。
看清自己才能看清未来。
外来的观察更能看清问题所在。
我真的非常推荐大家都能看一下柏杨先生的《丑陋的中国人》这本书,而且看的时候放下中国人的自尊自卑自
中国文化,看重的是个人在集体中的位置,看重个人的社会属性,而不是个人
和女性划等号没什么关系,但不能因此就期望单方面的被照顾,而不顾及对方的感受。
看过一些关于10的探讨,看过一篇文章中以美国为例,他们崇尚的10皆可(主要又2种:和同一个伴侣在一起,可1也可0;和一个伴侣时候为1,和另一个伴侣的时候为0),文中海指出固定的10关系是在模仿异性恋,是不稳定的。
我觉得这个还是要以各国的国情为依据,其实不论是文章中指出的美国,还是我们中国,我们的生活环境不同,但我们其实都在某种程度上拟合异性恋,只是我们国内的异性恋男女社会角色,社会责任分工比较明确,所以拟合这样的异性恋,10就分得比较清楚;美国的生活环境,男女平等的程度促使异性恋男女的社会角色和社会责任都相当,或者接近,所以拟合这样的异性恋,10就分得没那么清楚。
我是个受受,还是大叔控,和年纪稍长的人在一起有安全感,我渴望被照顾着,但说的照顾不是全方位的,比如经济这块,还是要相对独立才好。
和女性划等号没什么关系,但不能因此就期望单方面的被照顾,而不顾及对方的感受。
I've just seen this and would like to add my reply. Sorry that it is not in Chinese, but I want to express myself clearly...
Firstly, I would li
正自我反省呢。
I've just seen this and would like to add my reply. Sorry that it is not in Chinese, but I want to express myself clearly...
Firstly, I would li
------------------------
喜欢这句话,独立的人格远高于性角色